Licensing Committee - Tuesday 27 June 2023, 6:30pm - Tunbridge Wells Borough Council Webcasting

Licensing Committee
Tuesday, 27th June 2023 at 6:30pm 

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1 Chair's Introduction

good evening and welcome. This is the meeting of the Licensing Committee on Tuesday, the 27th June 2023. I am Councillor Atkins, Chair of this committee, before we get onto the agenda items, please give your full attention to the flowing announcements from our Clarke, Mrs. Maureen
thank you, Chair and good evening everybody in the event of the fire alarm ringing continuously, you must immediately evacuate the building at walking pace officers will escort to be the most direct available route, and no one is to use the lift we will make our way to the fire assembly point which is by the entrance to the Town Hall Yard car park on Madsen Way and once outside a check will be made to ensure everyone has safely left and no one is to re-enter the building until advised that it is safe to do so.
this is a public meeting and proceedings have been webcast live online, a recording will also be available for playback on the council's website shortly afterwards.
can I remind everyone to use the microphones when speaking the red light indicates, the microphone is on the any comments that are not recorded for the webcast will not be included in the minutes of the meeting.
you should all be aware that any third party is able to record or film council meetings unless exempt or confidential information is being considered. The council will not accept liability for any third party recordings.
It is very important that the outcomes outcomes of the meeting are clear. At the end of each substantive item, the Chair will ask whether the matters agreed in the absence of a clear majority or if the Chair decides a full vote, is desirable. A vote will be taken by a show of hands. Members should raise their hands to indicate their vote when called and keep their hands up until the count has been announced.
Members requesting a recorded vote must do so before the vote is taken. Thank you Chair,
thank you.
for the recording, we're going to take a roll call.
thank you, Chair, expected members here this evening, Councillor Alan.
present. councillor Fitzsimons.
present.
Councillor Frances,
present Councillor
Heywood present Councillor Lidstone.
bresnan
Councillor
Roberts,
present Councillor Sharratt
present Councillor Wakeman, person Councillor Warmington.
Councillor Webster, Vice Chair. present Councillor Atkins, chair
isn't just for the benefit of the recording Councillor apart is not here at the moment.
thank you, sorry, man, sorry, expected officers as well Nolan Callan.
present so he Martin.
and Helen Ward present.
thank you, and just for the benefit of the recording we have Councillor Elin Neville Cabinet Member for Environmental Services here this evening.
thank you, do we have any apologies for absence to
yes, we've had apologies from Councillors, Hill Johnson and White this evening Chair.
thank you

2 Apologies for Absence

3 Declarations of Interest

so agenda item 3, so declarations of interest members of the committee should declare this point if they have any declarations of interests on any agenda item this evening, does any Member have a declaration to make?

4 Notification of Registered Persons wishing to speak (in accordance with Council Procedure Rule 18 or 19):

I see none.
agenda item 4 is notifications of any person wish to speak, Mrs. Maureen, do we have any members of the public or whose members wish to speak
no speakers this evening, Chair?
thank you

5 Minutes of the Previous Meeting dated Tuesday 29 November 2022

agenda item 5 is minutes of the previous meeting dated on Tuesday, the 29th of November 2022
members are asked to confirm that the minutes of the previous meeting or a true record of the proceedings.
My remind members that only matters for discussion, so only matter for discussion, is accuracy. do Members have any other comments?
thank you, so the motion is agreed the minutes. we therefore agreed

6 Animal Licensing Policy

thank you.
agenda item 6 is the annual Licensing Policy this report starts from base 13 of the agenda, Ms Martin, delighted presenter reports, please.
thank you good evening to see we're here today to talk about the introduction of the newly drafted animal licensing policy, which will see attached to the report.
as Appendix A, and this policy sets out how the Council will exercise its functions regarding the regulations of licensable activities involving animals.
there is no statutory requirement for a council to have an animal licensing policy, however it is best practice to do so to ensure fairness, consistency and transparency across the service, the policy is for the benefit of all new applicants and existing licence holders of activities concerning animals covered by the 2018 and W licensing regulations, the dangerous wild animals Act 1976 and the Zoo Licensing Act 1981.
the policy will also provide additional guidance for officers and the public with the understanding and confidence the regulations, the Acts and statutory guidance reinforce consistently and proportionately across all businesses in the borough
I just want to raise your attention, there have been some minor changes to the policy since the draft was completed and these changes are as follows on page 3 of the policy.
in section 1.4 to the table, there's been the addition of the delegation to grant dangerous wild animal licences to the animal licensing officer and the addition of the clarification that any new or renewed renew licences under the 2018 regulations will be dedicated to the animal licensing officer.
on page 8 of section 4.2 point 1, there is a change in the numbering of change to 3.3 point 2 to 3.3 point 3
on page 9, section 5.4, point 4, there is a change of the number in a 3.5 point 3 to 5.2 point 3
on page 11 of the policy, section 7.4 point 5, there is a change to the wording with the addition of, in most circumstances, licensable activities must cease until such time as the renewal application has been granted.
on page 13 of the policy, in section 7.7 point 1, there is the addition of the word face, so it should read they pay a reduced fee for the subsequent activity.
and the final amendment is seen on page 18, section 11.1 point 7 was a change of the numbering from 7.3 point 4 to a point 3.4
as you'll see further detailed in the report and the policy enforcement, action may also be required for any unlicensed and licensed premises, and for this any enforcement action will be taken in regard to the Environmental Health Enforcement Policy which is attached to the report as Appendix B.
the preferred option in in conclusion, is at the Licensing Committee approves the introduction of the animal policy as drafted for consultation, the consultation, if or if, if the policy is approved for consultation, this will begin on Monday, the 3rd of July for eight weeks and the final draft of the policy will again be put before committee for final approval on the 12th September 2023 thank you if anyone has any questions, I'd be happy to answer.
thank you, so we have no registered speakers on this item.
members, do you have any questions for the officers at this time or should we move into any discussion, any any questions?
yeah
limited.
thank you, and thank you again for the report on and and the
and the proposal looks pretty pretty clear when you get picky and only have a specific question around section 5.2 point 3, which is on page 9, which is the offences.
the convictions for which
you know if you have won the council when ordinarily grant your licence. I think I understand the rationale for all of them, except for
offences and by definition, nonviolent offences involving drugs can would you mind just talking us through what the rationale was for for, including that one on the list, please?
this was included into the policy in relation to if somebody is under the influence of drugs or has been involved in it, then the potential of that person being a fit and proper person to care for the animals and provide appropriate welfare for the animals would be of a concern that was included we have, however, said that it. may not be indicative and it would be taken into account as to what time period has passed within them, but it was felt appropriate and on consultation with other local authorities, and it was deemed to be suitable to be included.
when you?
no one else.
Councillor Watson,
in Germany we have been in a confederacy, I thank you, I just am for the benefit of the committee, I guess this is a new policy for Tunbridge Wells, so can you kind of reassure us that
the that what we have in front of us is sort of in-line with what other local authorities have and then also I do have a sort of another question and but perhaps maybe if you
can confirm on that first,
yeah, of course, so them in the creation of this policy we did look at and other policies from other local authorities, there isn't a huge amount, is a definite increase, something that is increasing across local authorities, and this often the closest one is to build a mall in have a an annual last newly introduced annual assets in policy we did look at a couple of others and Tonbridge and Malling has included Brighton. and a couple of London way,
but based on of the my experiences, the annual licensing office, I've been in the role for four years and I've been input in obviously the the service across the borough and this policy does truly reflect what
how the service is operated and for customers within the barroso hope that reassures you that it is a true reflection.
thank you, I think that's yeah, that's reassuring and helpful to know that the were in line with other other local authorities, and I guess my the question which I've raised in advance was 1.2 point 5 on page 2.
there is a clause that says any change report by low not be considered a significant amendment,
obviously this new policies being brought before the committee for us to review and scrutinise. that seems like quite a broad clause to including the that that would therefore result in a significant changes, potentially to policy that we've approved, that we wouldn't have previous Councillors
so.
it does, I should, should that stay in their maiden good, we changed wording slightly so that it's you know, it's not a complete catch-all
for potentially what I guess if the law change there could be some really significant changes to the policy.
yeah, so just to clarify this, a statement we have so put there with 1.2 for five. Obviously, if there are clear changes made by an government or added into legislation and which do not allow us any discretion, I e, a new activity is introduced that we have to begin licensing, such as something like dog walking, or there are clear changes where we have again have no discretion. This is something that we will have to do. We won't have any choice around the matter. Obviously it is something we can certainly provide an update to the Committee on
compared to where is that if there is any areas, anything new that's introduced or any changes which do allow the Council some discretion, particularly at a local level? This is obviously something that will be brought before the committee and and then that's the policy
thank you.
thank you. anybody else.
sorry, I also had another question, after or after Ozma first
yeah, it's about the
it's about the delegated.
authority.
just just for my own understanding, if there is a you know, if there is a
complaint about a licence holder or something like that, that would that that would be the sort of thing that would come before Licensing Sub-Committee in the normal way, even with what's being proposed to have I understood that correctly or have I misunderstood that.
just as so just to clarify this as a complaint made about a licence holder. So
there's a tricky question.
It depends on the type of complaint, so if the complaint was that the licence holder was acting unlawfully or was doing something that was not permitted within the activity licence, an investigation would be undertaken and then we would follow our enforcement policy as to what would be the most appropriate course of action that could be bringing it back to Licensing Committee. So should it be that there was a recommendation made by Zoë the animal licensing officer, to revoke a licence that will come before sub licensing committee if the complaint was that they were
operating without a licence, for example, that wouldn't come back before the committee because that would then follow our enforcement policy of a stepped approach to enforcement taking a graduated approach, so it isn't a one answer fits all, it would depend on it and that's why we've included the enforcement policy within the appendix because we would have to follow that graduated approach.
I just wanted to reside in mind with what
you say, but that, in line with the power
on account, yet so where enforcement policy is or Environmental, Health Enforcement Policy, which covers the food safety service, the Environmental Protection Service, which is in line with other local authorities,
thank you.
any other questions,
I have won
so far, I know, for instance, that this will go through if this is approved by the Committee, not the sort of consultation for eight weeks from Monday.
the chancellor will come back to the next ICC meetings in September, so we will then see that the result of that consultation
the matter responses, what was said and so on and so forth, and then let that one breed either take or we take those consultations
into account or you would take that into account and present us with the final policy at their meeting as correct. Thank you,
thank you,
so any other questions.
the Christmas season should be going to member discussion then.
Councillor Hayward.
thank you, Chair yeah, so I'd like to just say that this this
fits nicely with the Council's current protocols and policies
for other licence activities, and I think it's as you've heard, that it fits in with other people's policies as well I've read right through it and I can't see any issues with it and therefore I'd like to propose that we approve and introduce the draft, thank you.
OK, thank you.
anybody else like to comment on this.
Peter
go Mr. Skinner, second
Councillor Haywards proposal, sadly, you go.
so I I I, I think it's you know, I think it's right and proper that we go forward to to consultation with this,
I would like to say at this point I'm not going to propose make any
proposed amendments at this point, but I would like to say at this point that I am
unsure of how reasonable it is to include a that sections I mentioned before about drug offences.
and I'm hopefully that will be something that will be pulled out
in the consultation process,
and also it would be something that you know, I I, I'd welcome, having sought further discussions, perhaps with the officers with at a later date about because, as I say I'm I I'm I'm not at the moment not convinced that it's it's it makes sense to have it in that, but I just wanted to kind of make that clear from my position at this point and yeah, but for to
consultation discovering more and then you know obviously when it comes before us again in the future we can. We can obviously make a decision
thank you, Councillor Lewis,
I think he wanted to second it today,
yes, I'm happy to second Councillor Hamer's proposal that we put this, I think that we put this out to consultation yeah.
what recommendation yet is Members consider and approve the draft and was the licensing policy has drafted?
we have any amendments, we have not made any amendments here tonight,
sorry prior to public consultation.
so are we all agreed on that?
agreed.
our sorry and sorry there's two parts to sorry and Members to note the consultation process as outlined, instruct officers to proceed with the same sorry.
we agreed with that agreed, thank you.
then is carried.

7 Urgent Business

8 Date of Next Meeting

agenda item 7 is urgent business, I can confirm this, no such business agenda item 8 is the date of the next meeting and the date of the next meeting is on Tuesday, the 12th September 2023.
thank you very much for attending,
thank you Chair.