Finance and Governance Cabinet Advisory Board - Tuesday 14 November 2023, 6:30pm - Tunbridge Wells Borough Council Webcasting

Finance and Governance Cabinet Advisory Board
Tuesday, 14th November 2023 at 6:30pm 

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good evening I am Councillor Christopher Hull, Chair of the Finance and governance Cabinet Advisory Board, welcome to this evening's meeting before we start the meeting. There are a number of procedural items to go through, for which I'd be grateful for your attention. I will now pass to the Clarke, Caroline Britton, thank you Chair good evening everybody. In the event of the fire alarm ringing continuously, he must immediately evacuate the building at walking. Pace officers will direct you via the most direct available route, and no one is to use the lift
we will make our way to the fire assembly points by the entrance to the Town Hall Yard car park, on once and way, once outside a check will be made to ensure everyone has safely left and no one is to return to the building until advised. It is safe to do so. This is a public meeting and proceedings are being webcast live online recording will also be available for playback on the Council's website shortly afterwards. Can I remind everyone to use the microphones when speaking the red light indicates that the microphone is on any comments that are not recorded for the webcast will not be included in the minutes of the meeting. It is very important that the outcomes of the Meeting are clear.
at the end of each substantive item, the Chairman will ask whether the matter was agreed in the absence of a clear majority, or if the Chairman decides a full, virtuous desirable, the vote will be taken by a show of hands. Members should raise their hands to indicate their vote when called and keep their hand up until the count has been announced. Members requesting a recorded vote must do so before the vote is taken. Members and members of the public who have registered to speak at the meeting will have three minutes to address the Committee. Thank you Chair,
thank you, Caroline, for the benefit of the recording I'm going to take a roll call, the clerk will call your name and if you are present, please introduce us, thank you Chair, Councillor Butcher, Alan.
present, thank you, Councillor dwellings.
present. Thank you, Councillor Frances present. Thank you Councillor, good ship present, thank you, Councillor McMillan, President, thank you Councillor Osborne present. Thank you Councillor, thank you present Councillor Hall present, thank you and officers this evening and Lee Coleen present thank you, Claudette Bam, and present. Thank you Jane Fineman present, thank you. Pamela Grover Morgan, I said thank you, Dan hutchins, Brazil. Thank you, Diane Brady present. Thank you, Peter Benfield at present, and John White
thank you.
thank you.
members of the Committee should be familiar with the process, but for the benefit of any members of the public who may be watching, I'd like to explain a couple of points committee members have had their agendas for over a week and have had the opportunity to ask any factual questions of the officers ahead of the meeting.
when we come to the substantive items on the agenda this evening, members or members of the public who have registered to speak will be asked to read the statement. They will have a maximum three minutes. Each, the relevant officer will then set out their report will then move into member discussion. At the end of the discussion, I will remind Members that without prejudice to any other comments that may be raised, the committee is asked to come to one of the following positions, 1, that the recommendations to Cabinet are supported by the Committee to the recommendations to Cabinet would be supported, subject to a particular issue being addressed or three, that the recommendations to Cabinet are not supported and if this is the case reasons should be stated. So first of all I'd like to introduce Dan Brady, whose recently joined Tunbridge Wells Borough Council as investment property manager upon time. Dan is a chartered surveyor whose role will be to co-ordinate with our external advisors and work with them to deliver the Council's objectives and business plan for Royal Victoria Place
OK.

1 Apologies

so I think we move straight onto the agenda, quite a lot of items to get through, but I can see that Councillor Osborne, David you'd, like to raise something at this point.
I have a a declaration of interest.
but we will come to that, David, there is a set that's item, two items I thought we don't want them to now.
now we're and apologies for anything yeah.
so yeah, I'll try and cancel through David's voter yeah, but bear with me we do need to cover up all of the items in the agenda, the festival and number one is apologies for absence.
thank you, Chair, we've received apologies from Councillors, Alan Knight and Ellis.

2 Declarations of Interests

thank you very much, so now we're on the to agenda item 2.
and so this is where I asked members if there are any declarations of interest, they would like to meet for any items on the agenda, does anyone have any declarations to make?
David, thank you, Chairman, I'd been approached by the monster upset, who's recommended to die as a member of the Civic Society recused myself from item 17 to the sale of 9 and 10 Cavalry Terrace.
I had a long and very productive call with the Montenegro's today and was I'm not necessarily in in full agreement out of respect, both for the role of the monitor officer and the individual, I will withdraw from the Chamber when item 17 is being discussed, thank you.

3 Notification of Persons Wishing to Speak

OK, thank you, Councillor Osborne, does anyone else else have any declarations of interest to make, I'm looking around the room and I don't see any others, so let's let's move on so item number 3, then his notifications of visiting persons wishing to speak am so.
I think that we have so Caroline, who do we have to speak to the Chair, we have missed Paula officers, the Chair of the Civic Society and Council Councillor Nick Pope, both have registered to speak on agenda item 7, which is 9 10 carefully trevor's.
I beg your pardon counts item 17 from 17 is.
so next is item 4, which is minutes of the meeting dated 10th of October 2023.

4 Minutes of the meeting dated 10 October 2023

are there any amendments to the minutes
I don't see any so in that case members are we agreed to approve the minute, okay the motion is carried, thank you very much we now move on to Item 5, which is the Forward Plan as all 1st of November 2023.
do members have any comments on the footpath?
debt ceiling, so in that case are members, or we agree to approve the full plan agreed.

5 Forward Plan as at 1 November 2023

thank you very much, the motion is carried.

6 Draft Budget 2024/25 & Mid Term Financial Strategy Update

so we are going to slightly change the order a little bit.

15 Procurement Strategy 2023-26

naturally, a couple of things I'd like to do one is will move the procurement strategy for 2023 to 2026, which is going to be presented by Dan hutchins tournament manager as the next item, and then I thought, given that we have got speakers and it has been suggested to me by a member by Alex that we perhaps,
rather than force them to go through all the agenda items before they get to the the reason that they're here this evening we move that one to the following agenda item, so just looking at Members around as to whether you'd approve of that we make that move yeah I think so OK so so we agenda item 15 followed by 17 and then we'll go into the normal order of the agenda, so let's let's move on to 15 then which is the procurement strategy.
I mentioned him already, so I'll introduce and handover to Dan Hutchings, our procurement manager, thank you.
thank you, Chair and good evening members, the report before you is seeking approval for the wording of the new procurement strategy, which will cover the period 2023 to 26, our current procurement strategy was approved for the period 2020 to 23, and since this approval we've entered into a partnership, we might sound Borough Council for the delivery of the procurement service during an internal audit in 2022 it was recommended that a new strategy for the Partnership should be developed.
which is what we've been busily doing over the course of this this year.
very happy to take any any sort of questions from Members at this point.
thank you other Neiman questions for them.
remembers
senior questions, so in that case is, does anyone want to make any comments in the debate, or are you happy to move to the recommendations?
think we're happy to move the recommendations, so in that case the recommendations to go forward to Cabinet are as follows number 1, that the finance and governance Cabinet Advisory Board approved the wording of the procurement strategy for 2023 to 26 in Appendix A and to the finance and governance or Cabinet Advisory Board recommends a procurement strategy for approval and subsequent publication and implementation by Cabinet on the 7th of December 2023.
members, are we agreed?
the motion is carried, thank you.
so now we move to an item 17, I'm skipping ahead now.

17 9-10 Calverley Terrace - Disposal

do need to read something out beforehand.
it is really important before we go to the registered speakers.
sir Peter Bonfield, senior states officer will introduce this report, but before I pass over to him, I'd like first to note that this item contains an exempt appendix which I am sure Members are aware of which is set out in the restricted papers until agenda item 21, the report may be discussed and decided upon in public session provided that no exempt information is disclosed.
our members are happy to take the exempt information as read or if you are happy to take the exempt information as read alternatively, if you do wish to discuss anything which appears in the exempt appendix please just indicate during the discussion, raise your hand, compare pull my attention, the decision will then be held over and discussed in a private session later.
so first, we're gonna, have a report to be introduced, might be to Benfield, then we'll have our registered speakers, Mr Paul Eavis and Councillor Nick Pope.
and then will move into stock questions and then, if you wish to discuss anything in exempt at that point, perhaps indicate to me that that's the time you want to go into exempt if you're happy not to and that we'll just carry on with questions and and debate so as long as everyone's satisfied with that thing everyone is let's hand over to to Peter.
thank you good evening.
as stated, I am here to presenting a report on for you in connection with the proposed disposal of 1910 Calverley Terrace, as you are well aware, it's a pe, prominent historic building.
in the centre of town, which is a surplus to the Council's operational requirements
it was previously approved to add to the the acid disposal list or register as part of the current Asset Management Plan.
the the the item that for discussion is to is essentially to discuss the proposed disposal to continue with the process of the sale the sales process, in the light of interest that has been received from its, is its placing on them on the open market with a respective firm of international property agents.
it is considered that disposal is the the best way for the Council to exploit the asset and to bring the building back into more into a viable economic use.
it is no longer needed by the Council for operational purposes, it does not provide a meaningful income in its current condition and, furthermore, the the you know the council does not have the resources to carry out any significant refurbishment, prepare itself or form.
a other another commercial use.
no final decision has been taken to dispose of the building as yet, and any any sort of formal sale or completion of this disposal will need approval via a Section 1 2 3, and also supported by a red book valuation which is awaited from.
surveyors who have been instructed to provide that report, thank you very much.
and we are open to any questions.
that you might have on the matter with myself, or my colleague Jonathan White is Corporate Estate or corporate property manager, thank you.
thank you, Peter, so we have questions to either Peter or Jonathan who is also attending the Committee this evening, so do members have any questions.
actually, thank you, the clerks reminded me that we really need to go to the speakers first, so yes.
wow yeah, let's wait for the speakers and then and then we will have questions which is the correct order of things, so first of all I'd like to invite Mr. Paul Eavis, Chair of the Civic Society, to come forward, please, Mr avis, Anne for your statement.
thank you for inviting me to talk this evening. I am speaking on behalf of the Civic and Decimus Burton societies, who, in April 2023, presented their business plan for the repurposing of 9 and 10 Crescent Road Calverley Terrace as the Chesterknowes, birth museum and study centre. The museum option was to be considered as one of a number of options, with a decision to be made on what was in the best interests of the town, which would not only include the benefit to the economy but also to the community. Despite the considerable local and national support for the project, the Council has so far not deemed it possible to support the project, although we have made numerous requests as a Council, we have yet to receive any detailed reasons to enable us to address any concerns. It may have the project's highly professional and qualified team, which includes a conservation architect who has worked on Windsor Castle, Ightham Mote, enhancements and Castle a surveyor currently working on Buckingham, Palace and historic England expert at an experienced banker with a background in advising banks on who to loan monies to is more than capable of addressing any concerns if they are given the chance. Meanwhile, at the invitation of the National Lottery Heritage Fund, we are preparing additional information they have requested from us for an e, I expression of interest application. Contrary to rumours, the project has not been turned down for funding. We've been concerned to get criticism from some councillors that clearly show they have not read the business plan in detail, as their criticisms are totally inaccurate, even going so far as to question the figures of the Office of National Statistics. What is really disconcerting is the way in which in which the Civic Society and residents of the town have been treated in this matter
not only have we had to find out about this flash sale through a press release, but we have received this recent comment from a councillor who was present at the presentation of the business plan in April, I quote from my notes I was expected to compare the Decimus Burton offering to that of Charles Darwin at our I wrote down Lib Dem chart territory delusional we find this disrespectful and not to be expected from a Councillor.
the Decimus Burton Society is currently working with the Prince's Foundation, the Royal Academy and the Royal Institute of British Architects on an exhibition to encourage young students to join the architectural profession.
through an exhibition on Decimus burton's work is such notable institutions as the Prince's Foundation believe in the value of Decimus Burton to promote the future of education in this country. Is the Council suggesting that it, too, is delusional?
we asked the committee members to dissociate themselves not only in words but through their actions from such disrespectful remarks of the few, consequently we asked the proposed sale of the two properties in car park in front is immediately withdrawn.
that they are removed from the asset disposal list and that the museum option is to present it to the full Council so that all councillors, as you are yeah.
I have one sentence.
and that the the museum option is to be presented to the full Council so that all councillors can be given the opportunity to vote rather than just the Finance Committee members, thank you.
thank you very much indeed, Mr Ibis, an online invite Councillor Nick Pope, to come forward for his statement.
thank you Chair, good evening members, I am asking that this Cabinet Advisory Board recommends that Cabinet defer the decision on nine to 10 Calverley Terrace until after the Royal Tunbridge Wells town centre plan is completed.
the decision to dispose the building is premature, the Council should and can wait for the completion of the town centre plan, the strategy for the town centre.
the timing is poor, the property market is depressed, insolvency insolvencies are running at their highest since the financial crisis, best value will not be achieved by selling now.
selling the building is at odds with the work the Council is doing over recent years, the Council has been taking control of the town centre 18 months ago, the Council completed the redevelopment of the library museum, another Education Centre into the Amelia Scott,
after plans to sell the Town Hall in 2019, this building is now being converted into flexible working space.
utilising the vacant space in the building, which will add vitality to the town centre.
and which will also help with the Council's running costs.
the leasehold for Royal Victoria Place shopping centre was recently bought to ensure the centre is well managed and provides the shops and other facilities the town needs to remain vibrant and a place people want to visit.
selling 9 to 10 Calverley Terrace would be the opposite of everything the Council has been doing.
and is doing to revitalise the town centre and manage the uses of buildings in the Civic block and close to the Civic block.
is this desperation?
we will all agree that the finances of the Council need to be well managed and protected, but rushing a sale of the last Decimus Burton Building in the Civic block in the current economic climate, it feels like desperation to demonstrate the Council is dealing with the deficit.
once the building has been sold, control of the building is lost.
there is an additional option.
the further decision until the town's into plan is being completed, in the meantime, the Council can request local groups, organisations and businesses to come up with ideas and plans for the building and allow the Civic Society to strengthen their business case, it is within your power to recommend that Cabinet deferred a decision until more information and data is made available from the town centre plan and more information about potential uses is provided by interested groups the decision should be deferred, thank you.
thank you very much, Councillor Pope.
so now had the the two registered speakers this evening.
we can now have Members' questions.
who would like to go first?
Alex.
thank you Chair, I was just wondering, following on from Councillor Pipe's statement, but a kind of realistic time plan might be for approved, the town centre plan sets, any England has any ideas, thank you.
became my officers here, who would anyone like to take that?
sorry, I wonder if the Cork had another speaker register to remember the committee.
the statement added this amendment by Councillor Downes, it's if it is a statement for the debate section, I believe that Ryan Karen yeah yeah.
yeah, I said a statement from Councillor Ellis.
for the debate sections in in in terms of timeframes, I would.
I refer Members to the Asset Management Plan for Council agreed 1st March, that declared 19 co-writers surplus to requirements, also this Council agreed a Corporate Plan for the year 22 24 and within that Corporate Plan, the priority was safe, guides council's finances and the actions worth to dispose of surplus assets.
so that's the mandate that officers have been working towards with the property asset oversight panel and constitution and the civic complex working party.
so in terms of timeframes, we are, we have a mandate to dispose we've gone through that process, 12 months has been allowed.
given to the civil society, we're in the hands of cabinet.
whether you feel that sufficient time has been given to dispose consider disposing of the asset or not.
thank you Les, but I think I think.
Alex was also asking about the town centre plan, so
I think speaking to Councillor Rutland fairly recently, I don't think that's anticipated unless officers can.
contradict me until 2024 at some point, and it's not forgotten that there's no set date at the moment that we've got, that would be definitive point in time we're working towards, so does that doesn't quite answer your question fully, but to give you enough and have allowances all right, thank you.
any other questions from members.
the
could you remind April because one of the officers reminded how many assets are on the surplus asset register, or what's the value of the total assets on surplus, as register that that we could look to get rid of or sell?
I would have to look up the dozen or so assets which are listed in appendix 5 that went to Full Council on the 1st of March, it is in the public mind, I don't have it right in front of me, but I will do so now.
I wonder if John answers the answers on that, without going through all the evaluations, I wouldn't be able to tell you when adding them all up, I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly what the figure was.
Joan, would you not, would you know how many of those assets on the surplus register are currently being marketed?
two of them.
sorry, yeah.
and if, if, if it's it, can I ask if there's only two being marketed, why are the other right not being marketed?
there are different strategies being looked at for each one of them, so without going through each one each one is particular in terms of what it could or could not be brought forward for some of them on there are the car parks, which are obviously awaiting carpet management strategies, we've got all the buildings on there like T and T which is subject to conversations with the YMCA we've got things on there, like the Wesley Centre, which is subject to conversations with Paddock with Town, Council, etc etc
thank you.
any of the questions Tom.
I think, Chairman it might be helpful if, if you explain to the committee you know what the significance of items being put on the
on the asset management plan.
is?
I mean, because, quite obviously, you can't sell every car park, so I think there are some understandings that that people need, it's too, what as to what's the significance of putting items on that list is in terms of actions that then follow.
I mean, I am going to address this at the Overview and Scrutiny Committee at the end of this month, I believe that is something that I think members would all really appreciate and benefit from, I just wonder if now's the right place to delve into quite a number of assets that are not really under consideration this evening for the committee so,
I don't waste any time because we time is precious and we've got quite a lot to go through, I will address at the Overview and Scrutiny Committee, and we can pick it up there and members from all parties can really scrutinise what goes on the asset management plan why how that comes about, but I don't think that's for this this committee if you'll forgive me so I'll ask.
question, certainly, but.
quietly aims to come back on that you know you're asking for a recommendation from this committee, please come yeah therefore I think that some no explanation of the background is is quite important.
I don't think it's relevant really at this point I think we've we've debated the Asset Management Plan, all Members have thoroughly and carefully at full Council on on the 1st of March I don't think it's really relevant or pertinent to what we're doing here, so I still fail to see the relevance of why we want to wind a discussion of the asset management plan and how assets that are deemed surplus to requirement or appear on the Asset Management Plan and will, however, address it at the Overview and Scrutiny Committee because I think that,
something as the Chair, that you would like us to do, so I will leave it there for the time being.
I think we should share with, if I can come back, I think that for this particular item there is quite a lot of history behind it and I think it would be worth covering that before you're seeking a recommendation from the members.
so yeah, there is quite a history behind it, so actually I'll try and address what your what you're asking, and hopefully it does address what you're asking, so yes, I mean my understanding is that you know when I picked up the portfolio that,
a considerable period of time had been given to the Civic Society, I think a year.
to come up with a business plan for this particular asset at that time it was all I think the decision had already been taken before I took up this post, so that was already in train, you may yourself have actually taken that decision previously and given the green light to it so we were waiting really for the Civic Society to come back and present to us.
and they did, there was a cross-party committee of which you yourself were remember, and representatives from all the political parties.
jointly with the proper property asset oversight panel, which at that point was made up of every single member of cabinet.
you know it's much more diverse now in it's across genuine cross-party committee, but we had the cross-party committee, the property asset oversight panel, who had the business case, and it was the decision of that panel, after listening to all the presentations that we that we had and the opportunity to ask questions that it was then decided to progress with marketing the asset.
to see you know what value we might be able to extract from what we deem to be an asset that is surplus to requirements as vacant that's costing this Council money to maintain, so I mean that's probably a bit of background for anyone who is listening or who you know who hasn't or isn't aware of that that background and hence why we hear today so the
it was approved there, I think, unanimously by everyone on the cross-party committee and the property asset oversight panel, I don't think anyone was in favour of proceeding with the museum, and so we had a lot of support behind doing what we're doing next, which was to seek what kind of value we could get from from that by marketing the site decisions not taken yet. That's what we're discussing tonight and then we'll proceed to to cabinet to make a final decision, but even then, I think you know what I would favour as the portfolio holder as it comes back to the property of the oversight panel and will review the you know what we've found from the the bid so far before then goes on to,
proceeding with the delegated authority to actually make the sale, so I really do want to get as much engagement and buy-in from all Members around proceeding with an asset sale, so that's that's the background process, I don't know if it does answer your question tub, does it address any of the things that you are sort of looking for from your question?
that I'm very well aware of the background and yes, it was my decision that we should invite the
civic society to to to to consider if they could.
come up with a scheme fought for that building.
my the purpose of my questioning and request that you explain the background.
is simply that it is quite obvious that a number of councillors do not understand the background of this. There's a suggestion that
none None have been consulted, well that's an issue for their groups.
there is a suggestion that they all want to be part of the decision where the Council's constitution leaves that decision to the to to to the to the Cabinet, the this committee is just a an advisory committee, it is not a decision-making committee and I just think it's important that we actually understand that and the process Rahm think that you know that this is a decision that we're taking because it,
it's advice that we're giving and not a decision.
yeah, funny, I fully acknowledge and accept all the points he raised there.
Tom, I'm very well aware of that and yeah, I think that one thing that's very valid are there any questions for many other members?
the Chair, you just you just said, something that I've which I enjoy myself, I appreciate you saying that, basically, if we give advice whereas we are advised to go to Cabinet Cabinet make a decision, are you saying you then saying that you are going to take that decision back to PR about pay before you execute, yeah, that's what I'd like to do, I don't have to think that, if not, it's not necessarily 100% necessary or essential in the formal decision-making process, but I would like to
would that be part of our recommendation to Cabinet?
I mean, if you if you wish, yes, I don't have any objection to it.
the other questions.
Matthew and then back to the stage, and I just like to know if we, if we kept that if we kept the ESSA on the register for another year, John what would be the cost of doing so, is there any sort of maintenance costs or anything forced or incremental maintenance costs?
costs are fairly minimal.
but obviously there is a requirement for capital receipts at the moment.
for the council, there will be maintenance only a very small part of one buildings actually occupied, and so yes, there will be costs the gas electricity usage. Et cetera, et cetera, though I I wouldn't be able to tell you off the top of my head what those costs are and obviously there is the potential for vandalism and everything else that had been suffering in other parts of our estate at the moment, which would want to try and avoid at all possible. But it's also just the degradation of the building ready. You know if somebody could bring it back, the sooner the better to stop that rot. Setting in
thank you.
I think if I could just add to that I think in the in the papers that we've had, I think in the
I think, is the capital report, there is a sum of 211,000 pounds that we will no longer need to spend on the asset if if we dispose of it, so it's in your papers, I forget exactly which page and so on, but it is covered.
any other questions.
kind of following on from what Thomas saying, but a slightly different track, but I've had a few more like everyone here, our inboxes are full, one of those chain of e-mails was kind of accusing us of pre-determination, I wanted just to cover this off in this public forum.
on the 1st of March, the assets was identified in the list in the in the, and we've already had this debate about the wording on on this piece of paper, but it says here site to be reviewed for development, I think it might be quite handy just to understand from the property team.
what they read is that because it doesn't say sale there and obviously since then we have marketed the property for sale, which is confusing a lot of members of the public and some Councillors, and it might make sense to clarify that for us now does that make sense that question?
dodgy undertaking yeah sure so it's building up really. Obviously, it was firstly identified in the asset management plan prior to that, obviously, there were discussions about giving it a year's worth of time in terms of looking at the business case. It's there was an advert, as per the constitution that was put out with respect to the sale going ahead. Well, with the opportunity to obviously bid for it, we had a property asset oversight panel, which is formally constituted request that we actually market it back in June, we then appointed the agent for that that marketing is now ongoing and no decision at this time has been taken to actually sell it. It would be subject to obtaining Section 1 2 3 best value and a red book valuation, so there's still more work to be done and subject to final approvals. Basically so it's been in the works, I would say, for quite some time in terms of the disposal, but we're not there yet
thank you, I appreciate that made that clear, I think also I'd like to go through the timeline.
because there's lots of things being said about how much time certain groups have been given the dates I've got here.
I am going to go backwards, because that's how they return here, the Leader of the Council wrote to the Civic Society on the 4th of October and the 22 of June, I assume there's a letter in between I haven't been able to see a copy of it, it's not been made public for some reason but I'm assuming there's a letter from the Civic Society to the Council in between those then there is.
on the front of the Civic Society paperwork, as he says, Moss 2023, and obviously we have the 1st of March when we're the Civic Society at invites, whereas the first invitation, what was that date, do we know that perhaps someone in this room knows it, how long does it or how long have they had it in their hands to come up with a solution?
I might struggle with that one I defer to if, if the Civic Society were given a year to to work up their business case, then it would have been before my time as a corporate property manager, in terms of timeframe coming forward, I'm not sure what promises were made before then but it's well over a year by the sounds of things.
every year.
if it is every other tongues, and can you call it, yeah could've been on some time in mid?
2021,
any further questions, no, thank you push it up.
I am looking around, I don't think there are any further questions now, so we can proceed to the discussion.
do any Members wish to make any statements at this point?
Lance, I can see your hand up.
thank you, Joe.
as referred earlier in the in the March Full Council this year, a motion was raised to remove the property this property that we're discussing from the asset disposal is given the underpinning strategies were not in place.
but our motion was voted down, including by Councillor Pope, who has spoken tonight the reasons behind raising that motion are still valid.
and I think, with the confirmation of a change in view by Councillor Pope tonight and other Councillors who have been e-mailing in it's clear, now we should have the conviction to change course, I think the Civic Society had made a compelling case, and I don't think that's necessarily a way at all councillors, particularly probably new councillors coming post 21 like myself.
it is key that this is.
a core of the heritage of our town, the potential to contribute to revitalising the town centre plan, a strategy which is still to be formulated as a cultural destination, so I'd like to propose a motion that the building is removed from the asset disposal list for 23 24 as a recommendation back to Cabinet.
and though the Civic Society have the opportunity to have their proposal considered by all councillors within the formulation of the Town Centre Strategy.
to ensure reacting in the best interests of maintaining the heritage of the town.
thank you.
I guess so now, Members, we have a motion to discuss as to whether we proceed with the motion.
Claudette, would you like to come in at this point, I would like to say that, from my recollection, the decision was made by Full Council with that property being in the AMP made by Full Council, I do not believe that it is within the remit of this
meeting is forum to seek to turn up to amend what Full Council has decided upon.
OK in that case, I think that's pretty clear.
there are obviously other recommendations that we can make and obviously three that I read out at the beginning of the meeting and do you wish to come back and proposed clarifications from Montreal, so for what I cannot understand why the committee we can make any recommendation we like back to Cabinet this is sort of a traffic light cab misunderstanding, we're not seeking to overturn.
a full council area with seeking to determine the course of consideration to Cabinet which they are entitled to take back to a future Full Council, the point I am making here really was, we don't believe all this information that we're discussing to my was there in front of councils at that time that we're making that decision in that vote.
thank you.
I had to come back with it, I remain of the view that I do not believe that it is for this committee to make a recommendation to Cabinet to overturn what Full Council has decided.
thank you.
OK, I'm gonna, go with my monitoring and informing me so.
if you want to rethink your motion or redrafted, but maybe there are other people who wish to speak at this point, and I can say that there are to my left, so while while you consider that I am going to have to take that advice, we're not going to go ahead with that motion, I think we'll go to I said OK, Councillor Sankey now yeah I just said plants sorry,
we quite successfully, but a couple of meetings ago kind of continued debate and were successful with with the amendment, but can, instead of forcing the amendment that, in immediately carrying on with the vote debate and seeing where it went, can I suggest that we do that and see how how as a group we continue obviously taking the monitoring advice?
monitoring officer's advice in just looking at the fourth year, as we have done in per year, I mean, I'd like to hear everyone's view, yeah I'd like to get around the table if I could and here yet whatever it was OK, thank you.
but I just want to be clear that that motion we're not going to come back to that motion.
so it will have to be a different motion or different vote.
OK, so are there any other views that Members would like to express or Alex, we would like to come in at this point.
thank you Chair.
yeah, I mean this, I'm the I'm I'm interested in the idea of recommendation what to look at.
interfering a decision on this on the basis that the town centre plan is really important for the town centre and imminent, it's all very well saying into 2024, but when the middle of November 2023, so it's probably not, but in theory it could be 6 7 weeks away, I'm sure it's a bit longer than that but the sale of something that does have a lot of importance could have a significant and educational impact.
I appreciate the costs with it, that that is worth exploring and exploring with the understanding of the town centre plan, when that is in place, to look at the direction for what we're doing, it is slap bang in the town centre.
and there's I know there was a lot of work going into town centre plan and I think that we owe it to them to take that into consideration for the direction where we're going commercially economically, all you know all sorts of ways within the town centre, so I'm I'm partial to sort of suggests that we know some sort of in in a recommendation that that a deferral could be looked at in light of the town centre plan being imminent and with a
I think that that's why it does want to throw into the mix on that one, thank you OK, that's fine, anyone else Steve you get it, thank you Chair.
I I count, I tend to agree with Councillor Alan Lee because.
we talked about the the asset register being the discussions that we had in March this year, and we looked at the asset register in light of this current of the situation that we were dealing with at that time, since that time we've obviously as a as a Council we vote RVP.
and we now have it, we have a complete, completely different opportunities open to us in terms of our town centre plan, because of the great work done by the officers and the took it to actually acquire the lease back from breached from British land, so given that we've ridden all that hard work there too because we were so concerned about our town centre, it seems to me that,
in March we could be discussed this as an asset because we didn't have the information that we now have about RVP. It seems to be sensible that we do duty for the situation, lists this this this this Essex sale, for though for the moment until we do get the town centre plan and at the same time it gives the Civic Civic Group the tie one more opportunity to get this done, but it seems to me they've had enough time and I haven't managed to get anywhere near getting this. The this, the the ending of decent business case together from what from Whitehall from the little information. I know I I might be incorrect on that, but that's what that's. What, as my understanding, is that the town centre plan is important to us. RVP is important too, as the whole centre is important to us, and I think that this we should give this. We should defer this for now. Let let the Civic Centre, any other group who are interested in, hopefully creating a better environment for our town centre.
okay and any other comments.
John God, I also agree that I think a deferral might be sensible for the two reasons one of the plan.
the the town plan, which seems to be quite important and also if it was a good time to buy with the RVP, then it is not a good time to sell one of those classic things, so if we if we sell it, the
when prices are not, commercial, prices are not as good as they ought to be, are we being sensible with the ratepayers money?
might it be that if we wait, we might get better prices or we might give the opportunity for the Civic Society to come up with something it just seems to me rushed?
thank you.
OK, we've got a few different points of view, but I think we've had, I don't think we've had from everybody, but we've got Councillor Ellis who'd like to have his statement read out as well.
does anyone else wish to make a statement at this point, therefore I listened to now come in, yes, OK, I think.
will give Councillor sustainable thanks. Khan, this is on Councillor Ellis's statement and I've spent considerable amounts of time reviewing this project and initially thought that it was a good idea in principle and look forward to reading the business plan. When reading the report, I took a pragmatic view of the potential for the project to be delivered effectively. If I were able to attend this evening, I would vote against the proposal for a museum. I just want to make it clear that nothing, I'm about to say, is a criticism of everyone, anyone involved in this project. I fully appreciate that this civic society has a desire to develop the museum. However, as a councillor, I must assess whether the proposal is realistic in achieving its objectives
the reason for this is that, even though the Civic Society is looking to run the project, the expectation is that rather than selling the proper property to the society, we will be leasing the property to them at a peppercorn rent, although this initially sounds except to acceptable if the project ends up running out of money either before the conversion is developed delivered or fails in management, there will be a significant pressure on the Council to provide emergency grants for project completion or to take over management on failure.
this is something that the Council is not realistically able to do for me to be supportive. The project needs to demonstrate a reasonable chance of delivery and success. Regretfully, I don't see from the report a realistic potential to deliver either. The first stage is to gain some interesting grant providers. The main criteria to get a grant to build a museum are the following. The significance of the individual to the UK, the quality of the museum proposal, the potential impact of the museum and the local community and the wider cultural sector. Although I now know who Decimus Burton is, this is because, as I have been a borough councillor for six years, I then asked a number of friends if they had heard of Decimus Burton, and they also said No, yesterday I went further and asked 15 people, I worked with who he worked with who he was and only one person knew who he was, and this is because they live near St Leonard's, where his son James, designed a number of buildings, I suspect they have heard of Kew Gardens, or maybe even the Wellington arch, but this really proves the point that the legacy of an architect is about the buildings they leave behind and less about the individual who designed them. This makes me doubt the door of Decimus Burton for tourists on their visit to Tunbridge Wells. I was also concerned as a long-standing resident of Tunbridge Wells as to how the town can consider consistently draw visitors to a single attraction museum. I recall an earlier project in the penthouse which I would regard as the central tourist area of the town.
a day at the Wells was a museum devoted to our Georgian heritage as a spa town, and it took significant efforts to set up, regrettably, although there were plenty of interactive exhibit exhibits, it did not succeed, visitor numbers, once projected at more than 100,000 a year on the launch in 1990 had fallen to just 15,000 a year on closure as the costs could not be supported.
in the report submitted by the Civic Society, the assumption is made of a forecast of 20,000 visitor numbers per annum I then compared this to other visitor attractions mentioned in the proposal, such as absolutely House in London, the former residents of the Duke of Wellington attracting 30 38,000 visitors and Keats House, attracting 12,000 visitors. I struggled to see how these visitor numbers are realistic when the Duke of Wellington and John Keats are significantly more famous than Decimus Burton, as the proposed museum is a significant distance from our main tourist centre. I again have concerns about the draw of the attraction beyond a single visit. When it comes to the quality of the museum proposal, which I have read in detail, I am concerned that the assumptions made about the generation of revenue are optimistic. I ignored the first three years of assumptions, all of which declare a loss, as I accept that any proposal like this will require a period of is to establish itself. Therefore, I looked at year 4, which states a surplus. However, digging into the figures, this only generates a surplus if the museum generates its required visitor number, including hitting required figures from residual income from a shop, café school events, exhibitions and leisure walks. To achieve this, the proposal is to have two full-time employees with any up any other work done by volunteers. The peer review in the report shows for different locations, all but one of the museums are showing the loss. The only one generating a surplus is the National Museum of Labour history in Manchester which employs 27 in a metropolitan area and therefore, in my opinion, is not a realistic comparison for this proposal.
I have no doubt that if the museum did open, it would add to the local community and the wider cultural proposition or proposition of the town. However, from what I've seen so far, I am not convinced that we will get to the stage where the museum will be able to add value to the community. I am also aware that no organisation has expressed an interest in funding such a venture, and one major funding orgasm organisation has also specifically stated that they would not be interested if, however, this civic society was able to gather funds for a purchase of the site. I would certainly be happy for the council to accept. Thank you Chair. Thank you very much, Caroline, OK, we have not heard from Councillor Ellis or anyone else. I want to make any points to Tom just to explain that, of course, attended the
property assets, oversight panel meeting and the presentation that were at that meeting of the
the Civic Society.
I have no difficulty in supporting the concept of a museum in Tunbridge Wells, I think that a variety of different attractions is terribly important, I think my issuing the reason why I supported the decision that to respond to the Civic Society on the sort of lines of,
not no, thank you was the risk, the entire financial risk, it seemed to me was falling with the Council, anything short of 100% of funding from the National Lottery and or other sources was ultimately going to fall to the Council and the ongoing cost of the operation if it didn't wash its face was also going to fall to the Council, so my
my support this because you know as a Councillor here, we have to consider in aware that where the risks lie.
as much as to consider what's good for the what's good for the town.
thank you for that, and there are any other points in the team yeah, so I to him I'm quite torn I'm also part of the property asset oversight panel and have had advance sight of all this.
it's a lovely idea, I remember a day at the Wells they are, when they're answering, I was a kid.
I don't think I ever went back.
it does seem to me that whilst it is a lovely idea of the Civic Society have had a yeah, I don't know how long it takes to set up a museum, but they've had a long time, we, we've given them a timeframe and that has been reached.
but I am also mindful that we have a town centre plan that that is currently being worked on and and this.
this Council is now very mindful of the centre of town with its ownership of RVP, what's going on with this building itself?
so I'm I'm completely torn at the moment chair, I don't know where to go, OK I mean.
it may be just a couple of things that have sprung to my mind anyway, since listening to comments from everybody around the table is, I think, that we're referencing the town centre plan, but I just want to be
everyone to be clear about what we're expecting the town centre plan to actually do.
is the town centre plan going to designate some kind of use by the Council of these buildings, which the Council has not been able to find any practicable use from for a number of years?
what kind of use do we think, realistically is going to come out of the town centre plan? I'm not sure if what we're expecting from the town centre plan perhaps too much, but it starts to designate usages and potential usages for an asset that is surplus to this disposal. I'm not saying I'm right, but those are the thoughts are occurring to me and I just wonder if we get to the end of the road town centre plan may have no designated use or preference or design or building that's been scheduled for disposal.
I mean, that's that's something I probably will ask you to think about the other thing probably is is if we defer it, then of course we put the 211,000 pounds back into spending on maintaining the asset, it's always going to deteriorate, as you know, the roof will leak eventually it will need fixing, it will need repairing, there will be costs associated with it.
and we have quite rightly been mentioned by members of the Committee that you know we've invested in Royal Victoria Place. We may wish to spend some money on further developing and improving that. So where do we get the capital receipts or the revenue to spend on that the asset? So is things to weigh up? I'm only asking you to weigh up a few things here in terms of hopefully that might give you some extra considerations to think about before we go into discussion of deferral, so but I can see that addicts would like to speak at this point, so please come in
thank you, yeah, I agree with everything that's going on, I think it is a financially.
I am really torn financially, I think it is a cost and if we weren't prepared, it's more money into it and there's a asset with value there that we could look when weighing up against the cross or cost of refurbishment maintenance, particularly Grade II listed that that's not a cheap option to go down when you've got listed properties as well using all the specialists in both their and your right we don't know what the town centre plan is but bearing in mind it could be imminent.
and it could be direct, I'm not saying all they're coming, you know this property here must be used for table-tennis.
being.
facile there, but it could have more direction on what, if it has got looking at the historical assets of the town, whether there is a focus on that that these are great opportunities of buildings are low.
for example, they want to look at that that is.
I just think if it was probably better, if we had an idea of when the town centre plan is likely to be approved or put into place 24, that is to say that could be a few weeks away, that could be nearly out a little bit over a year away if that going in but I think it's worthwhile.
if we recommended to Cabinet there may be consideration for deferral could be so with no.
dependent on town centre plan, if that's forthcoming within a period of no later than 6 months, so there's some impetus then on the Town Centre Forum to actually focus down, which again would then feed into another another group, to look at where they're going to and whether that is feasible and if it is feasible hang fire for the sake of what could be architecturally historically commercially really important.
and I noted from Councillor Elliott's sitting, but my understanding from one of the major funding organisations, as it was at this time, they wouldn't consider it and have put in recommendations of what would be needed for them to consider it in a future date, so more work would need to be put on that by the Civic Society, but it wasn't an outright currently it was an outright no, but it is not an ongoing outright no, so that's worth taken into consideration as well, but I do understand there was a
the financial and the cost of things, but if it was a recommendation for deferral for a limited amount of time, subject to no other actions being taken on by different groups and committees, I just think that's worth taking some serious consideration and to thank you thank you OK no thanks for explaining that some good points raised.
are there any other discussion points that anyone would like to raise, I think?
perhaps John you'd like to come in at this point, you just kind of signalled to me earlier.
yeah, so I've done a lot of projects throughout Kent and I tend to get lumbered with the quite difficult ones, so South rehab had acquired the Amelia and others which you probably right now around the rest of Kent, and all I would say is that I am offered quite regularly projects to come and have a look at them to see if I can deliver them and I always say what is the fundamentals that are driving them in terms of what's the basis of the argument going forward?
I was the officer who found a National Lottery Heritage Fund after I'd seen the great presentation that these gentlemen did at the power, because a great part of the business case is reliant on a large extent.
the funding coming through from that group in order to deliver it.
I know the senior investment manager quite well, we go back quite a number of years done a few projects with them. They're sort of starting point was in terms of collection. As far as she was concerned, there was no collection to be shown in terms of underwriting of the capital. There is no authority district or otherwise, that would be underwriting it. It would be down to a group of volunteers essentially setting themselves up as a charity, and therefore the risks associated with that that the National Lottery Heritage Fund was putting in money to a project that you know if it went wrong, it would go spectacularly wrong and there'd be associated with it in terms of the revenue I personally, and this might be personally then may well be. I've never seen a museum that hasn't survived without ongoing revenue subsidy from somebody else. They just the footfall just doesn't work in terms of your day to day selling teas and coffees doesn't make that much money. Unfortunately,
and finally they didn't see it as a strategic priority, it just Decimus Burton is known for a few great buildings and, unfortunately, 9 10 Calverley terrorists is not one of them.
so you know, I also looked at it in terms of the building itself actually to make that building compliant would do far more harm to that building than anything else, you would literally have to you know the first thing that you come to his steps, the next thing that you come to his more steps. So actually you know, some of the during, during the the the sale period, quite a few of the people who have looked at it as being put off by exactly that. They basically said it would be impossible to make this comply. The one thing that they will need to make if they want to open this as a museum is to make it compliant going forward, so the costs of that are significant
in terms of achieving best value.
I sort of smile sometimes when people say that because you think you know 2016 Brexit, 2017 more Brexit, 2018 2019 bring on COVID, Ukraine Warhammer you know when is the best time to sell, I mean you could just say never, but you need to come forward so in terms of deferring it and you know that that's your call at the end of the day, absolutely you know in your annual court to decide, I would just say remember that there are more costs that come if we keep it.
if we don't do anything with it, because it does not have a value in terms of service delivery for us going forward, it actually brings greater harm to that building. There are people out there who want to get in who want to invest money who want to turn it around the town centre planning is about helping creating and sustaining a more prosperous and sustainable town centre. They want to do that today rather than wait two years for what I think is a project which fundamentally will never happen.
OK, thank you, thank you, John, and any other further comments to John that's really useful, thank you, can I ask what what type of buyer do you think you can come in for that site through the building what hoodie hoodie could you proceed taking on that project?
without going into too many details, we've had all sorts from residential to care home to nursery and some people want to put gardens back into the car park, it's been a.
mismatch of all sorts.
any other comments did you want to come back for.
and in terms of in terms of that you do you, do you foresee that if we continue down this process that there are, there is going to be Obama that within the region within the continent, numbers, but within the margin of error, that's been discussed.
the answer is yes.
one further question Chair was what was coming to use of the proceeds, can I ask, do we have that else, are we allowed to discuss that already, let's just go?
that will have to be, you know, to be decided, it hasn't been allocated to anything right now, thank you, yeah.
Alex.
just just that, thank you, that was very interesting, the response back, and that was just.
so at the moment, the interest that there is obviously interest there for that property, with with developers for a box,
probably luxury flats or old people's homes in the centre of town, which is the main interests at the moment.
for a developer, I'm not picking on it and it is sort of querying it conscious and aware of how many luxury flats and old people's OK there are in the centre of town, which I don't know necessarily with a town centre plan how much as I know that's another group, not this group but how much that adds in terms of diversity into the town itself, but that's the main I'm not picking at it, I'm just clarifying that the main slavery of interests that development sorry,
that's just one of the bidders.
OK anything else, anyone wants to write, we're gonna need to come to the recommendations now and we ought to support them, support them with some issue being addressed, or why we don't support them at all, though those are our options are members content to have a vote on it, the recommendations as they stand or is there another motion that someone would like to put forward?
certainly they certainly the fact that so should we be got, sorry, regardless of the motion, if we ask proceed, the fact that he goes back to PEP, I think, is really important because I think that they need to have a further oversight of what's going on prior to the actual ticking box as Nair suggests the other the other potential motion will be that we defer for a period of
six to eight months or something of that ilk.
looking around the room is their support for a motion like that, so it looks like there's a few.
but not necessarily a majority.
plus, would it help if we actually knew when the town centre plan was being delivered, because if I speak to Councillor Rutland tomorrow and she's actually you are on Christmas, gonna be February 2025 or November 2024 might put a different complexion on things I don't know yeah, Australia,
so how do you want to do this, I mean I think I can just go with the vote if we have a majority for the existing recommendations.
do you want to suggest something to yeah?
I mean, I don't think anyone is wholeheartedly supporting this proposal, I mean, I think we've all expressed a healthy degree of reservation.
it's how much how much weight you want to put on this, how much should we actually again to get into ask?
whenever you've picked up you've picked out the reasons for the row for the reservations you've picked up.
the
you've picked up the thought that perhaps this could be tied up in some way with the
town centre area, plan.
I don't think we're in a position to make any judgement of that, without knowing the sort of timetable that it's actually operating, I mean I just think that you ought to take it back to 2 2 2 2 cabinet, reflecting the views that that we've all expressed here, which is,
not supportive, but recognising that.
some action needs to be taken to prevent further deterioration of the assets.
OK I mean, we could we could go for, then you're saying option 2, really, that the recommendation is supported, subject to issues being addressed, and perhaps some of those issues have been addressed this evening in the discussion as to the timing of the town centre plan, for instance, I'm trying to answers, I'm trying to express the guess then to the reservations that have been understood West, I understood and yeah, the the
I do hear all the reservations that have been expressed.
so, Matthew, did you want to come in with a suggestion at this point before we go to vote on it, because I think we probably do, I think, we've fleshed out all the views now, suggestions last question yeah,
Peter and Jonathan, when will we know the results of our marketing fully, and is that then something that we could bring back and go OK, well, we've got this concept from the Civic Society and we've got that check there. When will we because at the moment we are, we're asking to you're asking us to vote on something which is hypothetical this hypothetical that so we kind of stuck in the middle again? We don't want to upset the Civic Society, we know what they can be like and don't upset Ben and you lot, because you guys can be like
rock in a hard place, I think that's where we all kind of stand.
with a load of technical stuff around it, so I'm just wondering if we had facts.
it might help us out.
can I be able to help you on that yeah, excuse me.
yeah, so I think it maybe there are.
offers have been received
there has been interest noted in instead of in the market
the the the the market remains and isn't isn't closed, others may soon have come in over time, but there is always the danger that if, if it's kept open as a just constantly running the previous interests, will it begins to look stale if it's something left on the market, it's the same for a residential property if it's for something sort of sticking around the market for for 12 months something
the interest in interest is is lost, there is there is interest.
the firm interest in genuine interest in the in the in the property now, and perhaps that are going to the point that Councillor Tudor Frances made about a good time to buy or bad time to buy, you know, it's it's the building itself, I think.
we perhaps habitat bees that are quite realistic in it's a relatively small building and, to be honest, a relatively modest value in into the current form, and if it becomes a good time to sort of sell in 12 months' time, the de the differences perhaps isn't going to be that significant it. Certainly if it was a good time to buy RVP now, if in 12 months it will be a bad time to buy the difference between those two assets is considerable, so that would it makes a significant difference to the to the income either received or going out
and I look forward to seeing it also bear in mind that the the the building will still exist if we dispose of it in its freedom refurbishment, it will still exist and and then it will you know he has the opportunity then to have a for a sensitive redevelopment that will perhaps appeal and work well with with the town centre plan it's not like it's going to be raised razed to the ground, I do think we will get that through planning somehow so.
those things have got to be better in mind and bear in mind that also that it's squeezed between the police station and office block the road to the front and a car park right behind it, so it's you know, I think there's a risk of having this romantic view of this building whereas we know where perhaps we're looking at it from a
appears to have asset value and there is interest in the building to that we can take advantage of for the benefit of the wider Council. Thank you Pete, thank you. I think I've allowed probably an hour has now, so at some point, and I think it deserves now. I think it really does deserve to be turned over. It's an important historical asset in the town
we've had speakers this evening and I really wanted to sort of flush out as many of you using, and I think we have, I think, we've accomplished that unless there's something new someone wishes to say.
I suggest that we we, we go to check with you members, whether it's unanimous or you want to then Claudette, I would just like to clarify what is available to Members this evening, so it's agreeing approve in supporting the recommendation that's been made if there are issues that have been highlighted then obviously those can be identified for it to be taken into account by Cabinet if members decide that they cannot support the recommendation it must meet the criteria set out.
in in the provision so inadequate consultation with stakeholders, inadequate evidence, insufficient consideration of legal and financial information, so if we all go into if Members are going to not support this, they really do need to ensure that it's on the basis set out in C of the options, thank you OK I think we need to break the deadlock really and go for a vote, but I'll allow one more intervention.
I was only getting sad to think maybe if we go for the
the approval, but with recommendations and those recommendations potentially consider a deferral process subject to Townsend plan subject to when that might be taken in, so if you do speak in a year tomorrow and find out three miles wide, and that's not going to be somebody to take him to and going back to I've completely forgotten between thank you yeah, OK as a recommendation back to Cabinet to consider the last option 2 subject to proposing spokesman with this option 2 effectively with those recommendations go down.
so Alex was suggesting that it goes back to pop for consideration and she'd like to add that to option 2, so recommending to Cabinet subject to an issue being addressed, so that it goes back to par and also subject to potential deferral, depending on the timing of the town centre plan, if I'm summarising correctly.
okay, so just just clarifying so whatever it's been put forward again must fall within be so the suggestions have been made, they go to cabinet and they decide as to whether or not they take those on board yeah, I understood yeah yeah and I understand OK so looking around the room,
do you think we could move with that one, have we got enough support for that around the room of on hearing, looking at nods, I think I'm gonna go for that, which is that option 2, that the recommendation to Cabinet will be supported subject to a particular issue or issues being addressed which Councillor Bridger Alan has already elaborated on and hopefully we've captured those Caroline have got those
do you want to read it out, yeah, I don't want me down now just to make it, let's let us, let's have it one more time Carolina who could okay.
the recommendations are approved and its subject to the timing of the town centre plan and the possible deferral if that timing so suggests, and then it goes back to pay up.
sorry, I was just going to ask, I take it that the vote has not yet been taken, I know there's been a couple of knobs, but we just didn't know about that, thank you, I'm just trying to find out where the committee yes, thank you Tom.
but I think you can add to that, and the Cabinet taking on board the other reservations that have been voiced are in the course of this meeting.
yeah
that's acknowledged.
OK, yeah, I've been trying for a while to go.
I was just the way that I think it is kind of clear that.
there is a consensus around the deferral and that sort of clay around the town centre plan, but I think there's been some really good points made around the club Pacha said just like to add into that spotlight consideration list because we've had some clear indications on that around capital receipts that will come in revenue and it is a whole pivots in terms of strategy from pure retail to activity, to leisure to cultural if Cabinet can consider all those together, then I would be happy with our motion that we have that full list of points for them to consider.
I think I'm going to.
as much as I appreciate your comments, I think I think we've captured those and they'll be captured in you know my feedback back to cabinet, I'm actually not going to add any any further complexity to this as a chair I think I'm just gonna leave it as it is that we will refer the the offers to the property asset oversight panel for consideration I'm happy to include that and then we look at potential deferral if
depending on the timing of the town centre plan, whether that it makes sense to do so if the town centre plan is not going to be 12 to 18 months away and we're just going to incur lots of costs and further risks than no, we will probably move with disposal, but if it's him fairly imminent and I think he said imminent was about six months roughly then there would be sensible perhaps to see if that's really going to be encompassed in the scope and and all the rest of it of the town and town centre plan, I can't answer that question, it might be that when we look at the town centre plan, I'm told actually it's not even in consideration
that's not what the town centre plan is really going to be all about, but I don't think we've got anyone here for the Councillor side of the office society who can clarify the terms of reference of that town centre plan and whether it,
should or does include an asset like 92 Calverley Terrace, we are happy with that, then I'll think or do we need a vote, or are you all happy to go for agreed Monday 1 about yeah, OK, so let's vote for that.
must go to a welcoming.
OK, just to be clear, we're voting on to be thank you, the caveat that the Cabinet Advisory Board supports the recommendation, subject to the issues that has been that it has identified, being taken into account by Cabinet.
and the issues are that.
that, in addition to the current recommendations that it's referred back to pay up and that the potential deferral depending on the town, the timing of the town centre plan, I got that, yeah, OK.
Councillor Patricia, Allen sorry, pick it up.
with reference to the town centre action plan and also the materiality of this building in relation to the Town Centre action plan, I think that's something we need to understand, isn't not just the timing of town centre action plan that the materiality of night-time Calvi Terrace, within that plan and by materiality you mean without before the Head of Planning to explain whatever one building if material ponder town centre action plan,
understood.
OK, Councillor Pacha Alan, well, thank you, Councillor dwellings.
for thank you, Councillor Francis, for thank you, Councillor good ship, for thank you, Councillor McMillan.
4, thank you, Councillor Osborne, I don't know he's not here, thank you, Parliament confirm Councillor Sankey.
for thank you and Councillor Hall for thank you Chair, that's the unanimous.
thank you very much, the motion is carried so.
we now move on and I just sorry charity start to get Councillor Rossport, but yet we do damage, we mustn't forget him.
so, sorry, Chairman, we also have the Asset Management Plan and I wonder if, through other officers, if that must be taken sooner, they could be released rather than just in terms of the flats.
yeah, I think that's fair enough, I'm going to suggest that the Asset Management Plan come next year.
so we jumping around the agenda at the moment.
the draft Asset Management Plan is his agenda item 16, so yeah, let's bring that forward.

16 Draft Asset Management Plan 2024/25

David, and let you settle in, so we're now moving, we're not at we're not at Item 16, yet David, but we're gonna bring that forward, the draft Asset Management Plan so yeah, I will do that next. So in that case the officer introducing will be to be fair. I don't think the officers were expected to introduce reports if I just cover the introduction, so the asset management plan comes before the Council every single year. It sets out the management strategy for our property assets and details the principles and mechanisms going forward. This the draft
the final report after consultation will come through the same process to the advisory board cabinet and on to approval for full Council in February, happy to take any questions Chairman.
ongoing, are there any questions Tom?
I just think that we ought to flesh out the right-hand column, eventually saying what what is happening and what what we think needs to happen for each of the assets I think that.
you know.
the crew.
the crude statement is pretty against the you know, for example, putting us all car parks, I don't think is very revealing, I think.
no, these things ought to be qualified in
in a in a slightly clear away, I've put it if, when being put in the public domain.
OK, I'm taking that as feedback and I assume Councilto ensure reference to the assets identified for disposal, you want further information against each one of those guests, thank you.
your officers will look to provide further detail on those as the reasons for identifying for disposal, thank you lie, are there any other questions?
yeah Lance.
to question the Director of Finance page 3 1 6
there is a list of assets at our disposal list.
just a point of clarification, so my understanding is correct me if I was incorrect, just under 30% of the Council's income is from council tax, the rest of the services and fees, those assets generate quite a lot of fees.
the the bit that I, as the parlance, seemed to find in that strategy is if they are disposed, where do we replace our income?
or is resembling to another strategy, thank you.
yeah, so for each one of those assets the income will be different, sorry car park and it may be displaced, it may not, but I think, as part of Councillor darling's request, that further information be attributed to each one of those, let us add further detail at both the the revenue consequence if those assets were to be disposal because there'd be different free five assets so,
let us do that further piece of work and were included within the Asset Management Plan.
yeah, thank you.
question from Matthew,
thank you, I think I was sat right here, almost 12 months ago, when something very similar was published and all sorts of social media sites were full of this, we agreed as a group.
that the phrase the following assets had been declared surplus and identified for potential disposal in date was terrible and misleading, and I'm a bit disappointed. Excuse me to see it here again exactly how we agreed. It wouldn't be written again, so I'm wondering if the officers can have a look back at what we agreed in this room and and implement that I recall their conversation and the word potential was added, so it's even more terrible than that last time, so it has got the word potential. This time.
yeah, that was my recollection, David Monster, and is there any particular reason why Town Hall Yard car park never appears on any of these lists, even though it's the ugliest and the emptiest car park in our town and also in the town centre, thank you.
because this is an operational car park.
used by the Council, and also we have a lease with Town and Country Housing Group for the use of that car park as covenants upon their building.
is any particular reason why those people can't move to, they can entirely empty top two floors of Crescent Road car park, which is 50 yards away.
can I say the the the the the lease for the car park?
to
second, profile of town for the that car park for to Town and Country Housing, it's actually 500 years so they're tied in for it, so you know it'd be a complicated transaction, there is that I think there may well be one or shift the lift and shift arrangement to to relocate them, but they they are entitled to a
I am very long lease on that from 19 in the mid 90 s.
OK.
another question OK.
I wouldn't have thought was a very good excuse, I mean Tom again, I'm sure they'll be quite happy to be paid off and music halls 50 yards away, that's the that's the only reason why we're not putting a particularly valuable asset up for sale when there, as has been mentioned, on social media, a lot of these other car parks are much loved by the public. One car park which isn't loved by any of the public but probably as quite a large value is the townhome yard car park, so perhaps we could investigate ways in which that
See how much it might cost to change the existing leasing arrangements so that car park could become available for sale.
okay, any other questions.
we are happy to move to through the discussion onto the motion or do you want discussion on this, I'm not seeing any I'm keen on the discussion of maybe you are making.
now just to apologise to Leigh, he was right.
OK, so let's move moved to the recommendation, then showing there's nothing else that anyone needs to say at this point.
so the recommendations to go forward to Cabinet on the Cabinet approves the draft Asset Management Plan for 2024 25 for consultation.
and I think that's it are we agreed.
OK.
right so now
jumping back to earlier items on the agenda, we've moved around a bit.

6 Draft Budget 2024/25 & Mid Term Financial Strategy Update

I think we're going to the draft budget, which is item 6, which is the next one to the beginning of the agenda back to the beginning, if everyone's following, and I'll hand over now to leap one thing to introduce them.
can I thank you Chairman, so this is the third report in the process of settling the 24 25 budgets were still awaiting the local government finance settlement, but this is expected to be yet another single year roll over which is disappointing and not conducive to strategic financial planning for essential local services. The draft budget gap for next year is 489,000 pounds and this rises to 6.7 million pounds in the year 29 30 if there is no management of that gap in terms of the draft Budget, the major changes are set out in the table at Power 2.2 6 and they are the impact of higher property maintenance costs.
higher bid Kent service costs like community support fund and a decline in planning application numbers. Those additional costs have been partially offset by the savings plan which we set out in October. Also, it's worth mentioning that we previously discussed at this committee why the Council does not include business rate growth income within its base. Turning to the latest forecasts set out within the report, this approach appears to be correct with above forecast to have the lowest level of business rate growth in the whole of the Kent. Pool
I'd had this been included, we would then be facing a further 1 million pound gap to find.
the financial impact on reserves from funding the revenue budget and the capital programme is set out in the table 2.4 4. This does, however, showing that the budget from 25 26 is balanced without further recourse or draw down of reserves. There's also 1.6 billion pounds of new capital schemes set out in the report and approval of this does not include 4.5 million pounds outstanding capital require works required for AVB car park, which is currently the subject to review by Cabinet and finally, the draft budget will be subject to four weeks public consultation with the results of the survey helping to inform the final budget and the level of Council Tax for approval at Full Council in February next year. Chairman, having taken questions,
thankfully, and the only questions for me about the draft Budget, David
could you let me know or let us know how much an investment interest has been added to reserves and how much you estimate will be added during the whole of the year, thank you.
if you wouldn't mind last picked up in a future report when we get to the Revenue Management report and my colleagues will parts of that body.
any other questions.
does anyone wish to discuss the matter in debate, or are you happy to move to recommendations?
think we're happy to move forward to recommendations, so the recommendations to go forward to Cabinet are as follows 1, that Cabinet comments on the draft budget and identifies any areas that they believe need to be strengthened or whether our emissions and to the subject to the above recommendation Cabinet agrees the draft budget for public consultation are we agreement?
okay, the motion is carried.

7 Revenue Management Report Quarter 2

we move on to Item 7 now, which is the Revenue Management report Quarter 2, and this time we have Jane Feinman, Head of Finance, presenting thank you.
actual expenditure to the end of September was 5.4 7 million that's 1.2 million under budget, and pleased to be able to report that we've reduced the forecast outturn budget deficit to 194,000 and improvement of 332,000 in the quarter. This is mainly due to further reduction, since in forecast staff costs of 448,000 less, the 85,000 needed to meet the budgeted contribution to the vacancy factor. The current shortfall of 42 full-time equivalent staff is still putting pressure on the delivery of services and the capital programme projects are still needing to be deferred
as detailed in the Treasury Management report, it's reported that there will be an increase of 1.7 million in investment interest and a 933,000 receipt from the property fund as his Council prop policy this has been transferred to reserves to fund the future capital programme.
similarly, it can be seen that the Council has forecast income of 599,000 from the public realm to enforcement.
there is legislation around what on-street surpluses can be spent on and it's not possible to use them to balance the revenue budget, hence the incomes being transferred to a parking reserve.
as can be seen in Appendix D, the Council had 28.8 million of usable reserves as at 1st April 23 by the end of the year, the forecast outturn falls to 23 million, if the future funding of the capital programme is considered and internal borrowing is deducted, it can be seen that there is 6.9 million left in the reserves.
we need 4 million to fund working capital, so we're now in a position where we do have a small surplus in our reserves again.
so whilst our financial position is improving moving towards the end of the year without recourse to reserves, we do still need to persist with our work towards bridging the budget deficit for 24 25, thank you, thank you very much, Jane so does anyone have any questions?
I'm not seeing any Alex.
thank you.
were we up to full employment within the Council officers, but would that reflect on say that sorry we've just were there for this year and that had been always there, what would that reflect on that surplus amount now Fiona mean,
that would have cost the Council an extra 885,000 pounds so that effectively is reducing the amount that we are going to have to use from our reserves, so we were planning to use from our reserves by 885,000 that's so far what we're forecasting, we're going to save through not having those budgeted posts in place.
any other question.
Tom
just just to ask him in terms of funding for the rest of this year, so there would be some very serious challenges for anyone wanting to.
anyone wanting to spend extra to budget is that a fair assessment.
we still have 194,000 pounds left to find in order to balance our services operational budget plus 85,000 pounds a quarter that we've budgeted for the vacancy factor.
if our difficulties with trying to recruit people continue, then we will be meeting our budget quite straightforwardly by the end of the year we're still desperately trying to recruit these people because it is affecting the organisation in all sorts of places.
so continuing with this isn't really.
a preferable outcome, but it does mean that we are well on our way to balancing the budget by the end of the year.
my question related to much more to extraordinary budget expenditure, but
I think the answer is yes.
would you agree that?
if you're saying that, if you're asking, if you can add things to the budget, I think there is a a little scope for that, and indeed a little bit later on, we're talking about or a proposal which would indeed need to increase the budget that we have got or increase the forecast outturn.
that's many more questions.
I'm hearing you talk again about the staff shortages which has been a feature ever since I joined this committee, but I see on the page 70 staff numbers on on payroll there's a huge recovery is this?
not right, then.
staff numbers on payroll has shot up in the last.
John could you and suppress the button, and then Jenkin come in.
I think it's actually quite a small key.
our concerns about whether we need to pay.
this is just one quarter.
1 calls to demand that the keys is quite small, I think you'll find that between last quarter in this quarter we've employed another six people.
thanks for clarifying that Jane or any other questions.
I don't see any, so, I think, does anyone want to move into the discussion or is it recommendation to do one discussion yeah OK alright, so anyone would like to make some comments at this stage. I guess aerodynamics, thank you, Chair yeah. I just think we need to keep in mind. It's all very well saying that we've not got it fully employed, so we're gonna hit the budget. At the end, we should be looking at having full employment is a huge amount of pressure on the officers. A huge amount of are massively understaffed. That in terms means there's actions and activities that we're not able to put on
you know to provide because we don't have the support staff to enable us to do that as as councillors I've been affected by that being totally, they once haven't got the staff to do it, so and it's yet another year that that's where we sort of it's gonna be all right because you know 40% short on and I just find that very concerning and we need to be supporting recruitment and not counting our chickens.
but we shouldn't count our chickens that there'll be money left over because there's gonna be a lack of employment within the offices, I think employment needs to be.
supported as much as possible to pick that up, thus adding to the yeah as much appreciated, and I just want to reassure you that no one in cabinet and certainly not me takes any satisfaction in the fact that we haven't recruited as many people as we need to wow. We want to make progress with that. There's always gonna be a certain vacancy factor by acknowledging your point that, when it gets beyond a certain natural level of vacancy, that you have a turnover, it puts strain on officers and the delivery of projects
we want to get moving on that as soon as we possibly can, it's a very challenging labour market at the moment, but I am certainly not relying on that in the budget, I would rather not rely on that at all, there are other things that are improving from fees and charges car parking and investment income but I certainly don't want to rely on the vacancy factor to deliver a balanced budget.
anyone else like to comment.
no, I think we're ready to go for recommendations, so they are as follows.
few of them, so a recommendation to go forward to Cabinet on number 1, that Cabinet note the Quarter 2 net expenditure on services and year to date was 5.471 million 1.183 million less than budget.
to the Cabinet note that by year end the Council anticipates net expenditure of 15.054 million on services, the forecast is 1.932 million under budget 3. The Cabinet note that by year end the Council anticipates receiving an increase in funding of 2.633 million due to additional investment income. Overall, this means an improvement to budget of 4.565 million. The Council will transfer 3.816 million of this to earmarked reserves and 749,000 will reduce the budget deficit that was to be met from reserves. Members are we agreed
the motion is carried OK now on to the next item, which is the Capital Management report for Quarter 2, and I'm handing back to Jane.

8 Capital Management Report Quarter 2

thank you, thank you.
cabinet originally approved capital expenditure of 12.6 million for 23 24, but the forecast outturn has increased to 18.5 million, albeit a reduction of half a million, since quarter 1 year, to date, only 2.4 million has been spent, so there's much work to be done if this programme is to be completed this year.
the report includes seven new requests for approvals totalling 1.9 million relating to 23 24, the main cost items are 850,000, which is to be funded from a government grant for the refurbishment of 33 to 36 Crescent Road, and this is to provide short term housing.
for our Ukrainian guests and longer term affordable housing for UK nationals and then 570,000 pounds funded again from a government grant to purchase a couple of new properties to house Afghans on resettlement schemes and, finally, just to say, there were no capital receipts again in quarter 2 either.
thank you
thank you very much and any questions to drink
but I think we have any on this report.
aphid, do you want to make any points in discussion?
no OK, so in that case well we'll go straight to the recommendations to Cabinet, which are as follows, and one that Cabinet note the actual gross and net expenditure for the year and the sources of finance, as shown in Appendices B to D.
2, that Cabinet approve the proposed variations to the capital programme set out in notes for point 3 to 4.10 3, that Cabinet approve the inclusion of new schemes into the capital programme, as set out in notes for point 11 to for point 17 and finally, for the Cabinet approve the proposed movement between years, set out in note for point 18 Members are we agreed
OK OK, the motion is carried.

9 Treasury and Prudential Indicator Management Report Quarter 2

next report is the treasury and prudential indicator management report also quarter 2, and now we have Jane OK, thank you Jane.
so the forecast out 10th, the interest on our from investments and bank interest for 23 24 is now 3.1 2 million, an increase of 1.7 million from the approved budget of 1 point for 2 million, and that's a further increase since quarter 1 of 452,000 the bank interest rates set by the Bank of England is now 5 point to 5% and the Council has achieved an actual interest rate of 4.7 5 in quarter 2 this is compared to the original budget of 3.0 7 showing that we have actively taken full advantage of the interest rates on offer.
the average funds available for investment were budgeted to be 46.2 million for 23 24, but by the end of quarter 2 we had 67 Po sorry 65.7 million available this is mainly due to a number of projects on the capital programme being deferred to 24 25 and grant funding being given to us from central government.
the 9 million investment with the property fund was repaid on the 4th of October at 9.00.9 3 3 million the gain will be transferred to the reserves, also the dividend paid was a net interest rate of 5.58% and finally, none of the prudential indicators were breached in quarter 2 thank you.
thank you are getting Jane any questions today, David, I just wanted to place on record my congratulations really to the Finance team on the excellent work done.
maximising the return on our investments, I think it's it's it's fabulous work that they move so swiftly.
generated so much revenue, thank you.
thank you, David.
I appreciate that, or any other question is team that conceivable, I would just like to second David's comments, I think that the Finance team, because absolutely fabulous job.
J, considering they're doing all this and they closed RVP, at the same time, fantastic stuff I wholeheartedly agree anyone else might ask any questions.
discussion comment.
no okay, let's move to the recommendations and which are that Cabinet note the treasury, management and prudential indicator position for 2023 24 that Cabinet note, the forecasts for investment and bank interest is 3.120 million, an increase of 1.700 million from the approved budget of 1,420,420 thousand and a further 452,000 from the quarter 1 position members are we agreed,

10 Fees and Charges Setting 2024/25

motion is carried, so we now move on to agenda item 10, which is fees and charges setting for 2024 25, and you're extremely busy tonight Jane introducing you again and to introduce this report, thank you.
often I'm sorry, you haven't had enough of my voice by the time the evening is over.
this report proposes the fees and charges for 24 25 and delivers a budgeted income of nearly 7 million pounds the medium term financial strategy usually assumes an increase of 3%, but this year we have needed to pass on some of the inflationary pressures being brought to bear on the council's cost base.
while inflation is running at CPI, consumer price indices of 6.7% the budgeted income is proposed to increase by 6.3%.
there are a few points to which I'd like to draw your attention in 2015 government granted H M Land Registry, the sole power to issue local land searches.
the Council was notified that this power would actually be transferred in 23 24, but a date has yet to be set once this happens, local authorities will lose the 15 pound income per local land search charged and for Tunbridge Wells, that's 19,000 pounds of income, but we will still be required to maintain the Local Land Register for them.
it can be seen that the prices for escaping session remain the same as for 23 24, but that the income has increased by 20%, that's bothering endings.
following various legal challenges, HMR C has agreed to allow all local authorities to treat their suppliers of leisure services as non business for that purposes, and this enables the Council to keep the 20% VAT rather than paying it over to the GMRC.
planning application fees are still set nationally, but there is currently legislation before Parliament which intends to increase major application fees by 35% and all other applications by 25% from the 1st of April 24, these increases have been included in the budget but the volumes have been reduced, bringing the total planning income increase to only 11%.
this is because the pause in the progression of the Local Plan has reduced the number of applications likely to be received in the next year.
following the acquisition of the lease for the Royal Victory Victoria Place shopping centre, the Council would like to offer annual, full and part time season tickets in line with all other multi-storey car parks in the town, so this is annual full and part time parking season tickets that will be available for parking on floor 8 and above it's also proposed to offer a 20% discount on those season ticket prices to all staff working in retail units leased from the Council.
and finally, at the end there's a a section in the report which shows our continued progress towards the digitisation and electronic payments supported by our constant efforts to develop our systems, this work is really helping to provide best value to the customer when delivering Council services.
thank you.
thank you, thank you Jane any questions.
anyone wish to make a statement in the discussion or debate.
no, I think in terms of fees and charges, then we'll move on to the recommendations.
which?
are as follows, and that Cabinet agrees the fees and charges set out within this report and the attached appendices and delegate authority to the Section 1 5 1, Officer, to make any necessary amendments, that Cabinet agrees, the timings for the price increases to be implemented on the 1st of April 2024 or so the way otherwise indicated in the report Members are we agreed motion is carried

11 Calculation of Council Tax Base

we now move on to 11, which is calculation of council tax base, and I think this is gonna be quite brief, Jane isn't it?
yes, this has to be just a verbal update, because the Council is required by legislation to calculate the tax base in the period between the 1st of December and the 31st of January, so I can't provide you with a report at this stage. Essentially, the tax base is the number of properties in the borough eligible to pay council tax. The tax base must be notified to Kent County Council Kent police Authority Kent Medway Fire and Rescue
and the parishes by the 31st of January 24, so I will offer a report to Caroline to publish on the 1st of December in preparation for Cabinet on the 7th of December, thank you.
and I believe we're going to circulate to members of this committee as well, because
though it is not going to be another refugee until January now isn't so, I would like Members to be able to get sight of that.
you wanna come in yeah that that's absolutely the case.
as I've explained, I can't give you the report right now that will be published for cabinet, but we in recent years we've tended to copy in all of the members of of this advisory board so that you can see what's on that report.
great any questions, tribute to the recommendation.
okay, which is?
I don't think there is a recommendation on this, one is there now.
on novel.

12 Community Support Fund 2023/24

let's just move on, then to it was just a verbal update, let's move on to 12, which is the Community support Fund, and out to you again Jim.
thank you said 22 23, the council created a community support fund of 100,000 pounds and this was to support the most vulnerable households in the borough through the cost of living crisis.
they invited all organisations based in the Borough to apply for one-off grants to provide this direct support.
the Council would like to repeat the provision of the support fund in 23 24, as monitoring reporting has shown that considerable numbers of vulnerable residents of the borough were successfully supported and that the grants were beneficial, it's proposed that the administration process is managed in exactly the same way as last year and the funding will be found from savings to the in year revenue budget, thank you.
thank you Jane any questions.
do you have a question, there are no questions as to the discussion point, okay, we'll move on to that, if no one has any questions, we can go to the discussion, OK, let's do them.
while this committee was advised last year that the last year's figure was a one-off, of course no one objects to.
making helping where we possibly can, but I
I do have reservations about x for the budget items coming on in the course of the year, when these really should have been assessed at the time a budget was prepared.
OK thanks for your feedback, any other discussion points, Matthew.
and, contrary to what Tomlin said, I'd like to congratulate Nancy, worn Councillor Nancy won, and Cabinet for finding 100,000 pounds to use at short notice for the most needy people in our borough, I think, is brilliant.
fully recommend that.
thank you, Matthew, anyone else Alex.
yeah, Shannon Matthews, comments actually and knowing last year, as it is very much appreciated throughout the community and groups and community largest and most various, that was really well utilised and and well spent, and one was directed out to n specific areas within the community that were a native of support to say thank you very much.
thank you Alex any other points.
OK, I think we can do all the contributions on this one that, in that case, will move to the recommendations which are that Cabinet approve the creation of a community support fund to the value of 100,000 pounds for 23 24 to be funded from the revenue budget this fund be allocated to charities based in the Borough to deliver assistance to residents of the borough with the express purpose of supporting them through the cost of living crisis and thirdly, that Cabinet delegate the allocation of the funding to the Community Grants Panel following an application process.
members, are we agreed, agreed?

13 Performance Summary Quarter 2

item 13, his the performance summary quoted to a family, he'd been waiting an awful lot from talking from for your bit, but now is your bits, I'll introduce you to introduce the report, thank you Chair.
the performance report summarises the Council's performance on projects, and so services encoded to 2023 24 project performance is summarised in Appendix A as the services the Council measures 20 indicators, of which 15 have targets of these 13, are performing to are underperforming and those are the percentage of homeless prevention and the percentage of parking transactions carried out at Ringo recovery plans for these are set out at Appendices C and D.
of the report were happy to take any questions.
are there any questions?
no okay, any points that anyone would like to make in discussion, not seeing any, so, I think in that case we'll move to the recommendations which are that cabinet notes the summary of project performance over, did you want to say something too late?
the Cabinet notes the summary of project performance I've recorded to 23 24 at Appendix A that the Cabinet notes the summary of service performance over the course of 2 23 24 at Appendix B, and that Cabinet notes the recovery plans for Quarter 2 23 24 at Appendices C to D members, are we agreed?
you remember, the motion is carried.
we now need to move on to complaints summary for quarters 1 and 2, and I'll hand back to Pamela Robin Morgan again for an update on this report, thank you, this, as report, is a summary of complaints closed by the Council in quarters 1 and 2 of the current financial year.
the Council close to 100 complaints in this period, which is a decrease compared to period 1 of last year.
the council agreed with 29 stage 1 complaints, 19% of these went to stage 2 3 of the Council's stage, 2 decisions went to the Local government Ombudsman in period 1 and the LGA declined to investigate all three.
the Committee was would note that the LGA's annual complaints summary was appended at the end of the report.
this is retrospective and it pertains to the last financial year copy to take any questions.
there are any questions, no, any points until you want to make a debate.
perhaps I just I just to say well done, I mean it, it's so nice that you know we don't have complaints that go all the way I can remember, we did about a year ago and Jane Clark actually sweating that the decision that'd be made against us but well done.
thank you, thanks thanks for letting us per hour.
going to say something similar, and I think it's just really pleasing having sat on this committee for think this is the third year now.
you know the progress has certainly been made on on complaints and resolving complaints more speedily and just wanted to compliment you and the team on the work that has been done on complaint resolution, and I think it's really pleasing to see that in the report, thank you thank you.
so to the
recommendation, then, which is the Cabinet, notes the summary of complaints over period 1 1st of April 23 to 30th of September 2023 are we agreed?
excellent, we've dealt with Item 16 and 17, so I think we're now onto the final substantive item, which is 18.

18 New Lease on asset - Royal Victoria Place Royal Tunbridge Wells

and Diane has been something of a baptism of fire few hasn't it on the on your first finance and governance committee meeting, and you've had to wait until the very end as well. I do apologise his full heart, I just, but I hope you found it interesting and informative, I'll I'll now introduce Diane investment property manager who will introduce this report, but before I pass over to Diane I do need you to note that this item contains an exempt appendix
which is set out in the restricted papers until agenda item 22, the report may be discussed and decided upon in public session, provided that no exempt information is disclosed and Members are happy to take the exempt information as read alternatively, if members wish to discuss anything which appears in the exempt appendix please indicate during the discussion and the decision will then be held over and discussed in private session later.
so now I can finally and empty you down.
thank you.
this report seeks approval to enter into a new lease for a shop unit in the Royal Victoria Place, the details are in the exempt appendices and they summarise the lease terms main lease terms the terms of the new lease were negotiated by the previous long leaseholder, but now that the Council owns the long leasehold interest the lease needs to be authorised by the Council to enable it to be completed, the lease grants a new three-year term to the tenant excluding the tenants' statutory right to renew the lease.
in return for a compensation payment to the tenant, which will be payable at the end of the new LACE term, this gives flexibility to the Council as landlord which supports the draft business plan approved with the acquisition of the long leasehold interest the lease is subject to the turnover rent, service charge and insurance being paid by the tenants entering into the new lease accords with the draft business plan objectives and therefore authority is requested to enter into a new lease, thank you.
thank you very much down, are there any questions, Matthew?
I have, I don't have a concern with what's in it, I have a concern that.
are we gonna be doing this every single time we're signing a list identifying being naive here, because one of the things that we have tried to overcome was the huge delay that the former?
long leaseholder kept achieving when trying to bring in new new tenants and adjust if we're not now meeting until I don't know when our next meeting is, but I think you just said January last year and that's not a huge amount of time away but these things can start to delay that's my concern lie, I don't know, is there something we can do about this.
if I may chairman you, you're absolutely right at the moment, the constitution requires a key decision limit of 250,000 pounds or more come before cabinet, so we're working through that process at the moment, but you know you're absolutely right, we wanted to have a more seamless and responsive why are particularly around tenancies at wills and and shorter term licences so that we've made some suggestions to the constitution review working party for consideration of is there a way where we can come up with a more expedient process, but one which still ensures that members are informed and it's within the business plan.
thank you, I pray, I've gone through that, and then I was just going to say that lies correct that some recommendations have been put forward, the meeting is on the 21 of November, and obviously it will be again down to members to approve, but it is in present form yes and then yesterday.
thank you that answers that, and I just think it's important that we are removed from the running of the shopping centre as we kind of intended from the beginning and this to sink against us, so thank you for already acting that I'll look forward to seeing their report.
thank you anything else from anyone.
of Kelli Chair, I'm just slightly concerned, but we set up an all-party committee to delay there's going to have a set, I've seen the be the best investment panel work that we are going to look after that. I'm trying to compute that. Well, I know we're gonna be going to the surely that would be the way to go forward because there's this cross-party investment committee if we can't do it and that that committee meets then it's a smaller committee, but it has got oversight and is cross-party. Surely that would be the route forward, because what I do know in this is that this this list is not going in front of that group
and that doesn't seem to meet, and I can also have a lot of sense that we've created this committee to oversee it, chalk up the process and make it more dynamic, but it's not being included in the oversight of this lease so I'm a bit confused as to why we set up that committee. Do you want to address it, you're absolutely right, we set up the investment advisory committee to consider all such matters at the moment we are constrained by the constitution, so the changes we would like to put forward
would be to make more decisions,
and without the need to go to Cabinet, but all those decisions will be having first gone to the investment advisory panel, so we've set the panels, we want more decisions, go for them and provided the investment advisory panel and the dedicated officers are content that that be the suitable form at which to then implement the decision rather than each month coming coming before Cabinet that's the process we're putting forward for consideration to the contrary, we're working party to to speed up that process.
I would also add that some of the investment advisory panel is not a decision making body and whilst it will give the sign off on LAD, the Constitution does need to be amended so that the delegation are in the right place so that one officer could then sign off, obviously they'll be reporting as well, so I'm sure officers will be coming back to the various committees, cabinet or whatever to give updates as to where things currently stand in relation to that particular asset and it's let in.
total work in progress, but do you want to add something else yeah I just wanted to wholeheartedly support the idea that we have the whole idea of setting up that investment panel, which will we get out from underneath the Council and I thought they were we needed more dynamic and that was the whole idea behind that oversight that a cross-party oversight I think it's really important that we gather constitution changes and get that dynamic committee working because that was the whole point of doing it.
I hear what you say needs to.
and another question for Matthew,
of just between now and January, are there any more leases that are going to be delayed until January now, or prefer to in January, because this will only advisory panel, just wondering if there are any other ones that perhaps we need to have a conversation about expediting some extraordinary meetings to make sure we're not delaying anything.
to my knowledge, at this stage there aren't any more, the reason that this particular item came was because you'll see in the exempt certain elements which which met the criteria that Lee had mentioned earlier, they're on others that have got that same factor, so to my knowledge though not, I must say that I'm still trawling through the information that's coming through so there might be some but I'll raise that and I'm sure they will address that.
thank you.
extend the lead to Glasgow out, this was the last substantial list that was in flight during during an exchange on completion.
OK any other questions or discussion points.
no, I'm not seeing any so, in that case, think we just move to the recommendations now which
I have in front of me now which
1 sum Cabinet approves the grant of a new lease on Petersham, set out in exempt appendix A to delegate authority to the Head of economic development and property, in consultation with the Director of Finance Policy and Development and the Cabinet Member for Finance and performance, to agree the final terms of the lease in exempt appendix A, and thirdly, delegate authority to the Head of legal Services be authorised to complete all legal formalities as unnecessary and incidental to the recommendation in this report and negotiate, execute and complete all necessary agreements and deeds arising from or ancillary or incidental to the decisions and, as we agreed

19 Urgent Business

OK, thank you very much motions par that pastel carried.
and then I think we've got urgent business, I don't believe there is any urgent business.

20 Date of the Next Meeting

which leads us to the date of the next meeting, which will take place on Tuesday, the 23 of January next year, at 6.30 p.m. The meeting is now closed, thank you very much, officers and members.